In Consideration Thieves Guild

[Andronak1989]

Please look into this Spell, after the Nerf of 88% we are cleary behind a Warlock with a permanent Pot Buff.

So i think you forgot a comma or something like that. Because the nerf hit us with 88 Percent.

I would be fine with 30-40 Percent nerf. Maybe 50...but from 32000k Potency to 4000 Potency...??

Please fix that. I used my Celestial Scroll for that...

Have a nice day.

You can even make it Single Again like it was before. Or one Group.

 

[Knotes]

I think the proposed change is a no-brainer. At 75% of pre-nerf, you're still not going to have Swashbucklers lining up to betray unless a raid already has Epic MV at 100% uptime. The nerf was a way overboard reaction to problem that had more to do with stacking of multiple class' abilities on a class with massive burst capability and a lot less to do with Brigand balance.

This might just be the fast and easy solution. Guess it would help to know exactly what the fully buffed TG numbers would look like at 75%

 

[Jrox]

You make some great points and I don't want you to think I am against change here. Never mind everyone thinking I am just in here to derail, if the other changes in the Birg forums are made and TG goes to 75% (and to which I have endorsed many of the other changes already - just have not had time to read through them all), it would put the brig into a meta-class category. I am merely suggesting that all things be considered. They are alloting 600 minutes I think to each class. This is 15 minutes out of that budget for rework.

I hope that with reasonable suggestions and well-thought-out changes, the changes will be more widely accepted across many of the classes that need adjusting. Just food for thought... I feel strongly about the CA being raid-wide and not just locked to one or two groups however it is reworked percentage-wise.

Being transparent about why raid-wide. I don't want to see two brings and a swash in raid. Just one of each with bards. I don't want rogues to become hybrid bards by replacing them. I feel like every good raid should have 4 bards. And that is a personal opinion/preference.

 

[Knotes]

Well at the very least this conversation seem to be moving in a more positive and productive direction.

I do understand the raid-wide argument. For years bards have pretty much locked down 4 raid slots for utility scout. This left rogues out in the cold. Then Swash with DP/MV was a must have in raids and more often then not replaced one of the 4 bard slots. When Brigands had full TG another 2 bard slots were taken. I'm not sure there is a way around bards having to share those 4 slots with rogues. But making TG raid-wide would mean 2 bards and 2 rogues for most raids. But bards need some serious help... I'm seeing more and more groups just replacing the bard with a second dps like beastlord.

 

[Jrox]

Well at the very least this conversation seem to be moving in a more positive and productive direction.

I do understand the raid-wide argument. For years bards have pretty much locked down 4 raid slots for utility scout. This left rogues out in the cold. Then Swash with DP/MV was a must have in raids and more often then not replaced one of the 4 bard slots. When Brigands had full TG another 2 bard slots were taken. I'm not sure there is a way around bards having to share those 4 slots with rogues. But making TG raid-wide would mean 2 bards and 2 rogues for most raids. But bards need some serious help... I'm seeing more and more groups just replacing the bard with a second dps like beastlord.

This, in my opinion, is where you see the error in not keeping up with support. Rogues are not considered support in my opinion. They are augmented DPS. While they don't do T1 DPS, they should offer enough in buffs and debuffs to offset that gap. Bards should bring buffs and protections and debuffs to the raid as they do kind of right now in the way of certain types of protections (Nox or Elemental & Blockers) as well as J-Cap, CF, & Battle Cry. But Rogue offers DPS as well, which should be in line with Conjy's and Necros.

Right now optimal groups should be choosing between a T1 or T2, not a T2 or Bard. The reasoning is that a T2 should make up for in buffs and or debuffs with their DPS that a T1 brings to the table. In a well-balanced make-up.

As a matter of point, you can do the H3 right now in a group with only a Swash as the sole DPS in the group if specced right and in the right grp makeup. You cannot on a Brig. NOT because of TG, but because of all the other things lacking. Heck, even the swashy needs things to be fixed as they were dumpstered on this Xpack. If you take away Dastardly Plan, they are in a bad spot. I know that is an unpopular opinion because the Brig is in such an even worse spot, but it's a fact. I have some things I am putting together for that forum but it is tough to explain in simpler terms. I am just hopeful we can get the Brig where it needs to be as Rogues in general need their identities back.

Starting with making TG raid-wide to match the raid-wide of other like spells and CA's shared by other classes. And it doesn't stop there!

 

[Knotes]

The reality of today is that out of your 6 group slots the Tank, Enchanter, and 2 healers are locked down. This leaves just 2 slots which have been typically filled by T1 dps and your bard of choice. Swashbuckler is pretty damn powerful these days so you could get away with leaving a dirge and putting the Swash in for the T1 dps. However, this is in no way the optimal setup. You will see far better groupwide dps by replacing the bard with your Swash and keeping the T1 dps. This decision is really due to how little bards are bringing to the table these days. Don't even count your Swash's DP/MV for the group... the raw personal dps that your Swash does over what a Bard does is going to be more by itself than everything the bard brings to the group in both dps and buffs. Now add in DP/MV and it is a slam dunk no questions asked, thank you for playing. That is just the sad reality of it. This is also why beastlords and similar classes are taking bard slots. It would take fundamental changes across multiple classes for this to change. Maybe someday that can happen... likely at an expansion release with massive class balancing.

Brigands started this expansion with TG at a level that made them raid desirable for the first time in forever (not even counting the double stacking exploit). We got a taste of what it felt like to be a Swashbuckler and have a spot in raids. Then in haste TG was excessively nerfed in addition to fixing the double stacking issue. So ya we want that back. I do not feel that returning TG to 75% is anyway game breaking or unbalanced when compared to what the Swash brings. In fact Brigs would still need work on top of the 75%. I do not want to tear down the Swash I want Brigs to be moved up and be comparable to them. Lets also buff up bards and bring them up to the Swash and hopefully Brig levels. Then we will have some real choices.

@Randalph dislike it all you want... it doesn't change the reality of it.

 

[Ionized]

I've never been able to extend the duration unless I had some Trouby stuff running.

And making TG in its current form raid-wide is very valuable to a raid. Then if you work on the hundreds of other things that need fixing you will be on the right path to making the Brig right. TG is up pretty much full-time time whereas Dasterdly with Vaunt is only up 10 Seconds out of 45. I would say it's not Epic like the Swash but again, it's not an epic ability.

My only point all along has been if you fix ALL THE THINGS wrong with a Brig, making this raid wide in its current state will make the class.

Just for the record, I have tested it again and again and it works every time. On a dummy, I started out with Dastardly Plan and then vaunt right off the bat. Hit flourish to reset, hit vaunt again long after the 10 sec of dastardly plan and poof i got double the duration at full value out of my Vaunt skill. You can do this, if you don't believe me, and if you need screenshots i have them. I start every raid pull out this way. Works with ready up the exact same way.

 

[Jrox]

Never said I didn't believe you, and I will look into it. I consider it a gift if it works, so if it does... Thanks, I guess, not sure why the combativeness lol.

 

[Ionized]

Never said I didn't believe you, and I will look into it. I consider it a gift if it works, so if it does... Thanks, I guess, not sure why the combativeness lol.

Sorry bro I have to be combative. I mean out of the 145 replies in this thread alone you are 33 of them. You have basically told everyone on here that they are wrong about the buff, wrong about their damage. The only singular job a brig should have is debuff. When no one has seen debuff work at all in years. That your Brig friend at raid knows it all and we are just new and have no clue on how to play. Meanwhile there is top 5 progression guild brig here saying your not right. Jrox honestly, you come off like someone who is trashing a class to make sure they are the only class picked. You could be proud of yourself if that's your intentions, I get asked weekly if the troll swashy still wrecking the brig forum. Your actually kind famous.

 

[Mely]

Current Proposed change based on the discussion above seems to be leaning towards
Increase Thieves Guild Organized Crime bonuses to 75% of the values they had before the reduction.
Time Investment for that change would be: 30 minutes

If I have misunderstood the current request, respond below.

This has been "In Consideration" for nearly a month. Other than a handful of people making noise this proposed change to 75% of the pre-nerf value with a 30 minute developer time commitment seems to have plenty of support and should move to a vote. It will either pass or fail and we can move on.

 

[Rasheti]

Would it be a fair compromise to make it raid wide and buff the current stats on it by 2-2.5x? That way it gives 110k-140k pot, 80-100 fervor, and 300-475cb to the whole raid before vampiric, and it would get brought back to 25-30% of what I was. Along with the debuff buffs the other threads are talking about I think this would be more than enough to make brigs worth a spot in a group.
Alternatively if it not giving fervor oc is a problem you could keep it at 40 fervor and give it an equal amount of fervor oc instead.

 

[Poemaon]

Omg Jrox what did you do, edit nerly every Single Post to "it should be raidwide in his current form"

Erbärmlich.

Just Start a Vote for the 75% an let the brigands vote.

Or wait some more Months what ever.

 

[Knotes]

Just Start a Vote for the 75% an let the brigands vote.

Yes... this is getting old. Let's vote.

 

[Randalph]

Retracted

 

[Jrox]

Sorry bro I have to be combative. I mean out of the 145 replies in this thread alone you are 33 of them. You have basically told everyone on here that they are wrong about the buff, wrong about their damage. The only singular job a brig should have is debuff. I never said this. When no one has seen debuff work at all in years. Something the entire Brig community knows it is SUPPOSED to be their identity as a class. That your Brig friend at raid knows it all and we are just new and have no clue on how to play. Indeed he does. Meanwhile there is top 5 progression guild brig here saying your not right. Classes are not balanced on top 5 raid guild players. Jrox honestly, you come off like someone who is trashing a class to make sure they are the only class picked. Would never trash the Brig and never did. Just disagreeing with the meathod being proposed here that suggests it would balance them. You could be proud of yourself if that's your intentions, I get asked weekly if the troll swashy still wrecking the brig forum. Yea, the guy who disagrees is typically veiwed that way. Your actually kind famous.

I have upvoted every other change for the brig in other threads. This suggestion for a vote, that is not right, is if the intention is to reinstate it as 75% of Xpack launch strength.

It should remain as is and be made raid-wide.

I would also caution you. If you get it to 75% of what it was and two groups, Brigs will find it hard to get anything else voted through. Which would be a shame because there are SO many other things that need fixing. But if DPS is your only concern, vote it through or go make an Assassin. Honestly at this point trying to reason seems to only make everyone upset. Good luck with your vote.

 

[Jrox]

Omg Jrox what did you do, edit nerly every Single Post to "it should be raidwide in his current form"

Erbärmlich.

Just Start a Vote for the 75% an let the brigands vote.

Or wait some more Months what ever.

Indeed you are since you clearly can't debate anything wihtout name-calling.

 

[Poemaon]

Editing all old posts, so the context doesn't make sense, which is not really nice either. I have never seen this before. Just wondering

 

[Jrox]

Editing all old posts, so the context doesn't make sense, which is not really nice either. I have never seen this before. Just wondering

My only point to posting in here was to hopefully point out that while Thieves Guild in it's current state is much less than what it should be, was to point out reverting back to even half it's power was just as bad of a mistake for the Brig as a class. People were taking what I said and trying to play it out as I hated Brigs, which could not be further from the truth. There are lots of things that need fixing. There is ample time on the developer's board to make sweeping changes and updates to the class to bring them along in a balanced manner. This should be the goal in every thread when asking for increases or changes to a class.

If we want balance and longevity making rational change requests and thinking about the bigger picture has to be considered. If you go look at other threads in the Brigs forum asking for changes, you will see with all of those changes and making the current state of TG raid-wide will not only balance the Brig but also make them desirable in all aspects of the game.

If we OP one CA to make a Brig desirable, how does that help anything other than for the current moment, to say nothing for the future of the class. YES, Make Brigs good again and desirable, but let's do it right! I believe the Dev's have true intention of taking into consideration all of the changes for all of the classes folks have been making. But I also believe they want to make changes that make sense. We HAVE to take them at their word and make suggestions in that light. Otherwise, we're all just wasting our time and could end up making it worse off rather than balancing anything.

Rationally; if it's current form is raid-wide, and many other CA's are updated to meet the current state of the game, the Brig will undoubtedly become a powerful and welcomed member of any group or raid.

 

[Poemaon]

I get your Point, but I guess the Problem is we will never get all the debuffs on a point like 2010 where the Brig pushes Dispatch for the limited Time it was up, the Raid was doing ~25-30% more DPS (no spell resets at this time) so it was a limited time, 30% now will be too much, and think about all the other debuffs, they have to fix like up to 8 Spells, in my opinion this will never happen, if they fix all the debuffs I don't need thieves guild up on more than me and my partner in crime.

But I think everyone here is realistic enough to know they never have the manpower to chance all the spells, so they are ok whit TG because it's the easy way for Developer and the Player may be happy with this.



If Developer says they can handle all the other spells I will be fine with it, but since this has been unbalanced for like 10 years, I am not sure if they can handle it even if they have unlimited Time for it.

 

[Jrox]

https://forums.everquest2.com/index.php?threads/community-class-update-request-process.20/

Have you seen this? This is how they are addressing each class on an annual basis moving forward. I think it is a great way for them to manage their time and start moving things in a positive direction.

 

[Knotes]

I have upvoted every other change for the brig in other threads. This suggestion for a vote, that is not right, is if the intention is to reinstate it as 75% of Xpack launch strength.

It should remain as is and be made raid-wide.

I would also caution you. If you get it to 75% of what it was and two groups, Brigs will find it hard to get anything else voted through. Which would be a shame because there are SO many other things that need fixing. But if DPS is your only concern, vote it through or go make an Assassin. Honestly at this point trying to reason seems to only make everyone upset. Good luck with your vote.

This is easy to say when the class you play already has it all. Which is also why so many people have a hard time taking your suggestions for what is best for Brigands.

You consider buffing TG back to 75% or even 50% of what was with the real issue of the stacking exploit fixed as OP? If this is the case then the Swashbuckler's DP/MV raid-wide buffing to what averages out to be 428F/FO fulltime is 1000% overpowered and out of line for what any class should be bringing to a raid. This is EXACLTY why it is hard to take your suggestions seriously. Your 428F/FO to the entire raid absolutely blows TG buffing 2 group to 75% out of the water. Not even close! Yes somehow this buff to 75% makes Brigand's overpowered? As a Swashbuckler today... I would just keep my head down and mouth shut while praying that the nerf hammer doesn't find me as well.

This thread is the perfect example of why these class forums will struggle to produce anything meaningful. The handful of Brigands fighting to have a ridiculous nerf rolled back get drowned out by raids that don't want to be inconvenienced with changes, bards that don't want their 4 "guaranteed" raid slots challenged, Swashbucklers that want to remain king of the rouges, etc., etc., etc. This will likely be the outcome for any and all class specific changes.

Regardless, lets vote. 75% as considered. Is there a silent majority that wants to see this change happen or does the handful of people against this change who are making the most noise represent the majority? Not sure... but you know how to figure it out? You vote and see!