In Consideration Thieves Guild

Andronak1989

New member
Please look into this Spell, after the Nerf of 88% we are cleary behind a Warlock with a permanent Pot Buff.
So i think you forgot a comma or something like that. Because the nerf hit us with 88 Percent.

I would be fine with 30-40 Percent nerf. Maybe 50...but from 32000k Potency to 4000 Potency...??

Please fix that. I used my Celestial Scroll for that...

Have a nice day.

You can even make it Single Again like it was before. Or one Group.
 

Caith

Active member
Staff member
Developer
Please look into this Spell, after the Nerf of 88% we are cleary behind a Warlock with a permanent Pot Buff.


You can even make it Single Again like it was before. Or one Group.

Remember to try to add specifics for a request when you open up a request, such as the suggestion from Chath in the second post. This will help spur on the discussion and thus move the request through the process.

Revert it to the previous values then make it self-target and just affect the brigand's group. Currently, the values for it are incredibly meager, especially when you contrast it to what swashbucklers offer a group/raid.
This is a fine example of a request, it has specifics of the desired change. More specifics are always better, so that they can be discussed by the community members, then a poll can take place based off of the discussion for whether or not the request is implemented.
 

Andronak1989

New member
Thanks for your Reply:

Okay then you get what you want ;P
Currently Thieves Guild on Celestial does this: To be a valuble Teamplayer you can change it like in the table.

Potency - 4804,8 *5 Increments 10,000 * 5 Increments
Fervor 2,1 * 5 Increments 15 *5 Increments
Crit Bonus Overcap7,0 * 5 Increments 75*5 Increments


And to avoid Exploid make it Raidwide. To be more reliable instead of giving Fervor, you can change that to Fervor OC.
 

Fidd

New member
Potency 4804,8 *10 Increments, Fervor 2,1 * 3 Increments, Crit Bonus Overcap 7,0 * 5 Increments like this now!
10,000 * 10 Increments, 15 *3 Increments, 75*5 Increments this is how it will be right!
 
Revert it to the previous values then make it self-target and just affect the brigand's group. Currently, the values for it are incredibly meager, especially when you contrast it to what swashbucklers offer a group/raid.
Even it's previous version is way too powerful if it was 1 group only. It would essentially kill off bards if it stayed the same... Roughly 300k potency 1200 CB and fervor, can easily destroy any buffs from the bards .
 
There's a disconnect between T2 these days between utility and DPS. Outside the swash (which has alot of DPS and utility). The other T2 classes don't bring enough utility or DPS to "fully" justify their existence.



And utility exists in 2 forms (buffs and debuffs) Brigs have been the debuffer but the quality of debuffs compared to mob stats aren't effective today. And adding in buffs like they have to alot of classes have just thrown off balance even more. (Like the assassin epic 3 does more debuffs than the brig epic 3). When the brig was THE. debuff class....
 
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Chath

Active member
Even it's previous version is way too powerful if it was 1 group only. It would essentially kill off bards if it stayed the same... Roughly 300k potency 1200 CB and fervor, can easily destroy any buffs from the bards .
I don't really follow why brigands being viable would kill off bards. Wouldn't a group simply have both, especially if you only benefit from one brigand in a group? While I'd concede that thieves guild is stronger than any one buff from bards or illusionists, I think arguing that a brigand amps group damage more than a dirge when measuring all they contribute to a group is significantly more murky, assuming you have a dirge who's pretty good.

For the sake of argument, which values for thieves guild do you think would make a brigand have a comparable contribution to a dirge?
 
Making a brig viable solely by 1 ability TG would be silly. We wouldn't want to be a 1 hit wonder. In the standard group make up of. Tank, DPS, healer,healer,power feed,bard..... Where does the brig lie? It's not enough damage to be a real t1/DPS... (Again assuming you're not doing the solo heal method) And they can't power feed. Having TG as powerful as it was at start of expac would outweigh the gains of a bard.

I don't want the argument though to be let's just replace Brigs and bards back and forth. Because a brig isn't a bard. It's a brig. There's a huge gap in capabilities this expac between brig and swash. Last expac that difference was pretty much non existent for top end Brigs. But it turns out only thing allowed the brig to be close to the swash was TG. The brig basically had to have higher stats to be where the swash is.

I think TG should have probably been cut in half and maybe self group only. If the swash had TG they would outdo the brig. No matter what happens to TG, the Brigs need a damage increase to at least be on par with swash. Really they should be above swash single target and behind on AoE. But right now they are behind on both.
 
I don't believe the issue with the brig is TG... It's the abilities themselves and the debuffs. As far as exact number needed to increase abilities right now idk. I betrayed off the brig after the nerf. But I'd start with a 50% jump or more then adjust as necessary... The brig needs to out single damage the swash but not out AOE them.

TG just simply allowed the brig to bridge the gap of what it was missing to at minimum compete on a DPS scale with the swash.
 
I've said it before But in reality the devs (or I guess us now that we have a say) need to decide what a T2 is in today's world... We have real t1 classes providing more utility than T2 classes and more DPS... So where does a T2 stand if they don't provide meaningful utility or enough DPS.

You're better off running 2 assassins than a t1/T2 combo.
 
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Chath

Active member
Making a brig viable solely by 1 ability TG would be silly. We wouldn't want to be a 1 hit wonder. In the standard group make up of. Tank, DPS, healer,healer,power feed,bard..... Where does the brig lie? It's not enough damage to be a real t1/DPS... (Again assuming you're not doing the solo heal method) And they can't power feed. Having TG as powerful as it was at start of expac would outweigh the gains of a bard.

I don't want the argument though to be let's just replace Brigs and bards back and forth. Because a brig isn't a bard. It's a brig. There's a huge gap in capabilities this expac between brig and swash. Last expac that difference was pretty much non existent for top end Brigs. But it turns out only thing allowed the brig to be close to the swash was TG. The brig basically had to have higher stats to be where the swash is.

I think TG should have probably been cut in half and maybe self group only. If the swash had TG they would outdo the brig. No matter what happens to TG, the Brigs need a damage increase to at least be on par with swash. Really they should be above swash single target and behind on AoE. But right now they are behind on both.
I think one thing to keep in mind is that under this framework we have here, the goal is to try to get brigands brought up to par with swashbucklers through the least number of changes possible, because you have a finite resource (~10 hours allocated) to do so. While I understand not wanting to be a one-hit wonder, I think that Thieves Guild getting brigands pretty close to that mark is probably one of the most efficient paths you can take to get there.

On the basis of how the class should feel, I do largely agree that it'd be more fun if the class wasn't entirely based on Thieves' Guild - it'd also make the class more robust since any nerf to Thieves Guild won't completely gut the class, as happened here. But think in terms of it like this - if you had to make very small changes to the numbers of at most 3-5 abilities, what would you do to get brigands to be as desirable to have in a group/raid as a swashbuckler? Reverting thieves guild, even if it's group-only, would get it pretty close in one shot. But if you wanted to avoid one-hit-wonder you could do, say, 75% of the previous values for TG and then large value changes to a few other abilities (say, a massive increase to the combat mitigation debuff value of dispatch) as another route to get brigands up to par.
 
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I think one thing to keep in mind is that under this framework we have here, the goal is to try to get brigands brought up to par with swashbucklers through the least number of changes possible, because you have a finite resource (~10 hours allocated) to do so. While I understand not wanting to be a one-hit wonder, I think that Thieves Guild getting brigands pretty close to that mark is probably one of the most efficient paths you can take to get there.

On the basis of how the class should feel, I do largely agree that it'd be more fun if the class wasn't entirely based on Thieves' Guild - it'd also make the class more robust since any nerf to Thieves Guild won't completely gut the class, as happened here. But think in terms of it like this - if you had to make very small changes to the numbers of at most 3-5 abilities, what would you do to get brigands to be as desirable to have in a group/raid as a swashbuckler? Reverting thieves guild, even if it's group-only, would get it pretty close in one shot. But if you wanted to avoid one-hit-wonder you could do, say, 75% of the previous values for TG and then large value changes to a few other abilities (say, a massive increase to the combat mitigation debuff value of dispatch) as another route to get brigands up to par.
Absolutely. Love it. As far as changes like you mentioned to TG and dispatch yes 100%. I'd also include changes to cornered damage and debuffs... Murderous rake... desperate thrust(which currently only decreases cmit by 37...(or add debuffs to other abilities) Like shank battery assault ...

That's 6 abilities there to adjust which should take no where near 10 hours.


The 10 hour limit is silly because of how Imbalanced things are. 24 classes that 240 hours at 40 hours work week That's 6 of the 52 weeks in a year.
That seems kind of miniscule time they have set aside to do class balance which without classes having abilities to cast there would be no game... And it's silly to me. Yeah it's a start though.
 

Chath

Active member
Absolutely. Love it. As far as changes like you mentioned to TG and dispatch yes 100%. I'd also include changes to cornered damage and debuffs... Murderous rake... desperate thrust(which currently only decreases cmit by 37...(or add debuffs to other abilities) Like shank battery assault ...

That's 6 abilities there to adjust which should take no where near 10 hours.


The 10 hour limit is silly because of how Imbalanced things are. 24 classes that 240 hours at 40 hours work week That's 6 of the 52 weeks in a year.
That seems kind of miniscule time they have set aside to do class balance which without classes having abilities to cast there would be no game... And it's silly to me. Yeah it's a start though.
Unfortunately, I don't think we can assume anything about how long something takes to fix - it could be a situation where any change, no matter how small, might round up to an hour just because of workflow considerations (time spent on validating changes, changing issue states in a kanban board or jira or whatever, etc). I thought it'd be safest to try to focus on as few abilities as possible with very large scope for their individual changes, but we'll know more once we start to have sizing down on proposed changes. But first step would be to post all the above as their own issues and see where things land.
 

Ionized

New member
There's a disconnect between T2 these days between utility and DPS. Outside the swash (which has alot of DPS and utility). The other T2 classes don't bring enough utility or DPS to "fully" justify their existence.



And utility exists in 2 forms (buffs and debuffs) Brigs have been the debuffer but the quality of debuffs compared to mob stats aren't effective today. And adding in buffs like they have to alot of classes have just thrown off balance even more. (Like the assassin epic 3 does more debuffs than the brig epic 3). When the brig was THE. debuff class....

Even it's previous version is way too powerful if it was 1 group only. It would essentially kill off bards if it stayed the same... Roughly 300k potency 1200 CB and fervor, can easily destroy any buffs from the bards .
You are not utility if you don't have a mana feed. Probably take both a dirge and big brig buff to replace a 2nd assassin in group. Swashies are not replacing bards and pretty sure that 583 fervor for 20 seconds is kinda huge. Also thieves guild never gave 1200 crit bonus raw it 300k potency, 150 fervor not overcap, the crit bonus you get from it is in the aa and never scaled on increments so you got flat 110 crit bonus if you took the aa.
 
You are not utility if you don't have a mana feed. Probably take both a dirge and big brig buff to replace a 2nd assassin in group. Swashies are not replacing bards and pretty sure that 583 fervor for 20 seconds is kinda huge. Also thieves guild never gave 1200 crit bonus raw it 300k potency, 150 fervor not overcap, the crit bonus you get from it is in the aa and never scaled on increments so you got flat 110 crit bonus if you took the aa.
Right so that sort of shows the issue. You're better off running a 2nd assassin cause it's more effectiveness than the 2 classes combined..

Still alludes to the question of where does the brig fit..

I hate to say it but there was more room for a brig before they unlocked Tracing wound to be "stackable". You couldn't run 2 assy as effectively as you can now, so that allowed a rogue/brig to have a more desired spot.
 

Caith

Active member
Staff member
Developer
Current Proposed change based on the discussion above seems to be leaning towards
Increase Thieves Guild Organized Crime bonuses to 75% of the values they had before the reduction.
Time Investment for that change would be: 30 minutes

If I have misunderstood the current request, respond below.
 
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