Summoners' Role in EQ2

Clintsat

Member
In the spirit of the new class balance approach... I figured I could start a discussion to get a view on what the community viewed the role of summoners to be in terms of raiding.

Should Necromancers and Conjurers be dps classes that rival sorcs and preds or should they be T2 dps that brings substantial offensive/defensive utility?
 

Chath

Active member
On principle I do think classes should sacrifice damage for utility, it just sort of becomes a question of how much is appropriate. Conjurors bring some pretty amazing defensive prowess to a group that's often overlooked, and I think there being a 10-15% gap between them and assassins feels appropriate for that to me. But when you start to compare necros to sorcs you'd be really hard pressed to argue that they have more utility than sorcs do. Assassins, sure, but sorcs? I'm really uncomfortable with the strength of buffs that t1s have these days, aside from assassins, and feel that's really blurred the lines in terms of what people are bringing to the table, making most t1/t2 comparisons dubious at best.
 

Proto12

New member
IMO we'd need to define offensive/defensive utility first, and there would need to be an actual need or benefit for utilizing that utility properly. As it is right now it's so obscure and difficult to tell what actual benefit impact support classes bring (reading tooltips doesn't give you an accurate idea), and there's basically no need for any kind of defensive utility for the average scenario (healers are capable of doing 10x hps over what's ever needed, and most tanks have enough temps to effectively block/stoneskin stuff 60% of time).
 
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Chath

Active member
IMO we'd need to define offensive/defensive utility first, and there would need to be an actual need or benefit for utilizing that utility properly. As it is right now it's so obscure and difficult to tell what actual benefit impact support classes bring (reading tooltips doesn't give you an accurate idea), and there's basically no need for any kind of defensive utility for the average scenario (healers are capable of doing 10x hps over what's ever needed, and most tanks have enough temps to effectively block/stoneskin stuff 60% of time).
I think it's probably accurate to say that in most cases survivability isn't really an issue unless you're fighting things while greatly under resolve or won't be warding much damage, because otherwise one-shots are pretty rare and any non-one-shot damage is usually healed instantly. However, in those cases where one-shots are possible then defensive utility is actually pretty powerful and I don't think it can be completely discounted. I remember in RoR early on when H3s had crazy-high bleedthrough that for a shaman they were markedly easier to solo heal with a conjuror in the group, for example, and honestly probably was more stable than some 2-healer setups. Admittedly those are pretty niche situations, though.
 

Randalph

EQ2Wire Ambassador
To me summoners in EQ2 is the Plug'n'play class of Norrath with some utility sprinkled around them. They can function and add some functionality to your raid no matter what group you throw them into and are not depended on very strict and static group setups like a sorcerer would be. Throughout EQ2s history they have had their highs and their lows , but they are also never completely useless and at least one them have always had something to offer.
 
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Sentrasia

Member
On principle I do think classes should sacrifice damage for utility, it just sort of becomes a question of how much is appropriate. Conjurors bring some pretty amazing defensive prowess to a group that's often overlooked, and I think there being a 10-15% gap between them and assassins feels appropriate for that to me. But when you start to compare necros to sorcs you'd be really hard pressed to argue that they have more utility than sorcs do. Assassins, sure, but sorcs? I'm really uncomfortable with the strength of buffs that t1s have these days, aside from assassins, and feel that's really blurred the lines in terms of what people are bringing to the table, making most t1/t2 comparisons dubious at best.
Conj does bring utility with stoneskins and geotic rune (which is generally aa'd out of some of it's defensiveness), and power with sacrifice. However, lets not forget that both Warlock and Wizard provide some very nice buffs themselves. Warlocks have a great group potency buff as well as Grasp of Bertoxxolous for the dmg proc. Wizards have ro's blade/flame tongue they can put on group members as well as a decent potency buff (though lower than warlocks).

So you're balance is more conj that brings defensive utility vs sorc's that bring offensive buffs.
I'm not saying either way that conj should be equal to them or not, but that the buffs sorc brings shouldn't be ignored. Their potency buffs and dmg proc buffs are solid boosts.

Sin potential is just way out of line compared to really anyone else.
 

Vaella

New member
While I will admit that a conjuror’s mitigation is greatly appreciated when it comes to damage reduction, I don’t think that equates to such a large difference between their damage and an assassins. A conjys utility is lacking when compared to others, such as warlocks. Not to trash on their buff, but venomous runes when given to my raiding conjy does 5% of my outgoing damage.

There is very little that can equate to that mitigation aside, the only buffs that conjys have to increase another’s damage is flameshield(which we all know does almost no damage) and fireseed. Fireseed only increases someone’s fervor by 10.1 or slightly more/less, something that barely changes, or might not, with each expac. Then looking at the actual damage the spell brings to a player, it is barely a top 20 when cast on the warlock in my group and most of the time it’s not even top 20. Even cast on myself it is lacking.

So while our mit is useful, it only goes so far, especially when it is no longer absolutely necessary for a raid to use the mitigation to stay alive. So yes it does lower damage to the group but is not the end all be all.

Summoner dps is significantly lower than an assassins, and it should be lower, but not this much lower. Both summoner classes do have utility, it’s just not the kind that everyone wants(ie damage buffs). Necros do have the ability to rez people just like conjys are able to summon(slightly different but most comparable) and most of their buffs are all defensive. If we’re going to keep them at the same damage level there should be an increase in their utility to keep them in the “sacrifice dps for utility” type of play, if we’re now classifying them as T2. Otherwise a slight increase in dps would be a viable option to keep them as T1 classes.
 

Elgo

New member
Please show me a raidforce that will invite a necromancer for their abilty to rezz. A necromancer is a DPS class and so they have to do DPS or support the raid to do more DPS.

Necromancers have the poorest utility to buff something useful for more raid DPS. I will not compare the Necromancer with an assassin but if the wizzards and warlocks have more useful utility, a necromancer needs more DPS power. They never had great AOE or burst DPS so the DOT DPS need a bigger enhancement, if you want to avoid changes in the character basics. Otherwise the necromancer needs a DPS buff that will make a difference.

Beside this, playing in a good group, the life of a necromancer is frustrating without burst DPS.
 

Phee

New member
im not sure what the numbers are on live and who is dpsing the highest, but ive always thought that assassin ranger wizard and warlock should always be the classes with the most potential dps then swash brig conj necro in the next group under them. i know on the TLE is is far from that order of things.
 

Silverman1

New member
On principle I do think classes should sacrifice damage for utility, it just sort of becomes a question of how much is appropriate. Conjurors bring some pretty amazing defensive prowess to a group that's often overlooked, and I think there being a 10-15% gap between them and assassins feels appropriate for that to me. But when you start to compare necros to sorcs you'd be really hard pressed to argue that they have more utility than sorcs do. Assassins, sure, but sorcs? I'm really uncomfortable with the strength of buffs that t1s have these days, aside from assassins, and feel that's really blurred the lines in terms of what people are bringing to the table, making most t1/t2 comparisons dubious at best.
I think you have this slightly backwards...assassins essentially bring more utility than the sorcs do. with more vastly % dmg increase, more cmit reduction, an actually hate transfer that works vs 5% from the sorcs....

but your right t1's have been bringing way more utility than neccessary when compared to utility the sommoners brings. Both conj and necro are in a weird spot. Conj defense utility is absolutely undervalued but hardly if ever needed. but i suppose its fine as its powerful when needed.
Necros could easily use a boost in utility.. should they be the opposite of the conj?
Maybe both should bring more utility but maybe be hindered when using said utility?
Like if a conj isnt needing to use its defense utility it could get a dmg boost in its parse, and then when needed its dmg output would go down but be balanced by its needed utility.
 

Bardonio

New member
In the spirit of the new class balance approach... I figured I could start a discussion to get a view on what the community viewed the role of summoners to be in terms of raiding.

Should Necromancers and Conjurers be dps classes that rival sorcs and preds or should they be T2 dps that brings substantial offensive/defensive utility?
why either/or? this line of thinking sets a dangerous precedent to the future of the summoner. this will in no way bring new players to the table if roles of a dps class are diminished due to an exponentially ludicrous question. if the future of either conjy or necro relies on the either/or question i feel both summoners should be rolled back to ToV and left alone until the servers shut down. there have been nothing but worsening changes to both summoners since EoF and the hits keep coming. i also feel like the egotistical dps players/raid guilds/raid council opinions weigh in heavily on these changes which is in no way progressive for summoners (or any well played class). regardless if youre (see poster) a conjy or necro, your simplistic question isnt based on anything except the raid placement of YOUR guild. you dont value anyone's opinions or factually based information unless it benefits YOUR guild. sitting on the fence about everything EQ2 isnt devils advocate, its selfishness beyond understanding. dont pretend you care about the community by selfishly forcing raid zones opened to align with YOUR guilds raid nights.
 

Clintsat

Member
why either/or? this line of thinking sets a dangerous precedent to the future of the summoner. this will in no way bring new players to the table if roles of a dps class are diminished due to an exponentially ludicrous question. if the future of either conjy or necro relies on the either/or question i feel both summoners should be rolled back to ToV and left alone until the servers shut down. there have been nothing but worsening changes to both summoners since EoF and the hits keep coming. i also feel like the egotistical dps players/raid guilds/raid council opinions weigh in heavily on these changes which is in no way progressive for summoners (or any well played class). regardless if youre (see poster) a conjy or necro, your simplistic question isnt based on anything except the raid placement of YOUR guild. you dont value anyone's opinions or factually based information unless it benefits YOUR guild. sitting on the fence about everything EQ2 isnt devils advocate, its selfishness beyond understanding. dont pretend you care about the community by selfishly forcing raid zones opened to align with YOUR guilds raid nights.

Am I correct in summarizing your thought is that summoners should be both top tier dps competing with preds/sorcs AND provide the same level of raid utility as, say, a swash?

I main a necro, that'd be amazing but I'm not sure that it would be balanced.
 

Chath

Active member
I think you have this slightly backwards...assassins essentially bring more utility than the sorcs do. with more vastly % dmg increase, more cmit reduction, an actually hate transfer that works vs 5% from the sorcs....

but your right t1's have been bringing way more utility than neccessary when compared to utility the sommoners brings. Both conj and necro are in a weird spot. Conj defense utility is absolutely undervalued but hardly if ever needed. but i suppose its fine as its powerful when needed.
Necros could easily use a boost in utility.. should they be the opposite of the conj?
Maybe both should bring more utility but maybe be hindered when using said utility?
Like if a conj isnt needing to use its defense utility it could get a dmg boost in its parse, and then when needed its dmg output would go down but be balanced by its needed utility.
That's a good point about how much utility is built into the assassin epic spell, but warlocks have way more utility than most people think. Duration increase is very strong, but most people don't even think about it/notice it. Their potency buffs are significant and sorcs have the only proc buffs that really matter. Warlocks have combat mit and nox damage increase debuffs as well, albeit smaller than assassins. As you mentioned their hate transfer is meager but the mana gain on that obviates the need for any sort of additional powerfeed for the tank/sorc.

But totally agree that t1s have more utility than justifies their superior damage, and/or t2s have way too little.
 

Proto12

New member
I still think we need to define or redefine what useful utility actually is. As has been mentioned a couple of times already, defensive and "auxilary" utility is obsolete in the modern version of the game, which is why the T1 offensive utility measures up as equal to, if not more valuable than the utility that summoners provide. Gone are the days where necro single target cc and self sustain that are baked into the identity of the class matter in any way at any tier of gameplay. Same goes for conjuror's stoneskins, encounter cc, and other defensive utility. Both summoners are also suppose to have intrinsic utility via the use of a pet, which is suppose to make solo gameplay easier and allow them to "do things" that other classes can't. However, with the combination of mercs, field medic, and overall design of content, there's no real advantage having a pet - every dps class can solo equally - and heroic content is gated by mechanics that force having to bulwark and/or cure curse. The toolkit element of using different pets for different situations has also been intentionally forgotten about since many many expansions ago (scout pet all the time for everything). In essence, all that matters nowadays is damage, so any T2 class design or utility that isn't geared toward doing more damage has way less value.

With that said, summoners have always been plagued by the inherent design issues of an un-interactive/automatically controlled pet. Since the class can do 20ish% of it's damage afk, that naturally hinders the expected dps ceiling of the class. Or examined differently, lets imagine that conjuror and assassin design is kept as is, and the numbers tweaked such that they do equal damage with equal buffs. On the conjuror, the damage curve is flat, 100% at range, and requires an average of 20apm. On the assassin, the damage curve is incredibly spikey (more heavily influenced by combat conditions/mechanics and buffs), 98% melee, and requires an average of 120apm and specific coordinated burst chains. In this world, why on earth would you play, look for in a group, or bring to a raid anything but a summoner (ignoring the forced/encouraged class diversity elements of the game).

In truth, the entire combat design on live would need to be reworked to enable the class dynamics that the game is fundamentally built around, that we see in class design and in aa's that are no longer relevant today. In leu of that pipe dream, I think that summoners should just be considered dps at this point, with a high dps floor, but slightly lower ceiling than predators and sorcerers. I also think the same treatment should be applied to rogues, and to make both sub classes' self buffs more powerful, with lesser base damage on spells (this being a way to enable the high dps floor while limiting the ceiling). Keep the following unique elements of the classes - Brig (thieves guild, double up burst, and combat mit debuffs), Swash (powerful group temp buffs, aoe damage), Conjuror (consistent and reliable damage for single and aoe fights, sacrifice, shard buffs), and Necro (fd + res, reliable single target damage, heart buffs). These unique elements of the class should be powerful enough to make up for any lost dps by not having a predator or sorcerer in their spot. In doing so, offload all of the utility onto Enchanters and Bards (including the offensive utility on the T1 classes atm), and heavily buff that utility. Allow both sub classes to fulfil the powerfeed role completely. This design should also make it so that rogues and summoners will out dps predators and sorcerers if there's no bard or enchanter in group. Add a bard or enchanter, and the predators and sorcerers should pull ahead slightly, getting larger and larger as every party member approaches bis in everything.

In reading that back, I realize and stand by the idea that this balance perspective might make it so that the optimal raid only has 1 conjuror and 1 necro (and it would be important to make sure the heart and shard buffs make them worthwhile/necessary to bring), and tbh I think that's completely fine. The class strengths make them good in heroic content, and less reliant on a good group comp. I also think it's worth acknowledging that stat mechanics are designed such that a well geared summoner will do 2x+ the damage of a mediocre geared predator/sorcerer, even in the best group setup. It's also worth noting that none of this addresses an underlying issue with burst damage and how everything has to be balanced around RU, which is a whole other conversation but a significant factor/impact on trying to define summoner's role as dps.
 
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Giga

New member
Necros will get the shaft like they always do, even since Deserts of Ro they were the red headed step child. I'm not saying that can't or don't do great DPS, but they are just not valuable to most group configurations. Add in low population and that, well you end up being just not wanted.
 
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