Kill XP too high for mobs that are too weak

[Zenji]

I understand that the server will focus on mechanics from that era.

But what you're suggesting is that without a punishing time commitment to level, it's not the game players want.

I'm stating a concern that again they've wasted dev hours on a concept that's flawed. Because it's not 2006, the game isn't pulling in new players and won't, what other established MMO with a grindfest mentality is?

Youve got to be able to consider what the server looks like in 2 months, 6 months.

What I am suggesting is for a 2006 classic server to be as similar as it was to that era.

You don't speak for "the players".
It's just not what you want.

The concept is not flawed, it is widely popular across several genres including MMOs.

 

[Caul Shivers]

What I am suggesting is for a 2006 classic server to be as similar as it was to that era.

You don't speak for "the players".
It's just not what you want.

The concept is not flawed, it is widely popular across several genres including MMOs.

"Classic server" from 2006 does not exist.

What did exist, was the the KOS patch. With AAs, XP pots, kitted out alts, etc.
And different XP values for leveling.

So, unless you want the "classic" experience with KOS numbers, you need to understand that the leveling in 2006 was done by - again - kitted out alts, with AAs and sometimes with XP pots.
Thing is, I'm sure you understand that, just for some reason you prefer this to be a miserable experience that 3 people are pushing their agenda for.

And you see, you don't speak for "the players" either. It's not about what you want either.
XP at the start of bets was perfectly fine, and unless they do something, the current XP values will hurt the server. And I'm not talking people will start dropping out in DOF either, a LOT of people will peace out before they hit 25.

 

[Zenji]

"Classic server" from 2006 does not exist.

a vanilla server from 2006 does not, you are 100% correct
They are attempting to give us a 2006 server, with DoF and KoS content not available yet. This has been a clear design goal from the start.

And you see, you don't speak for "the players" either. It's not about what you want either.

We agree here. I have never implied my opinion represents the community as a whole.

XP at the start of bets was perfectly fine,

Unless your goal was to have XP rates from 2006. Which this server is.

the current XP values will hurt the server

Now who is speaking for "the players" ?

 

[AshtonMarr]

Is it fun? Does it bring in and retain new players? Please keep these questions in mind.

Varsoon leveling 1-50 on launch day took me ~11 hours and 40mins (We'll say 12 for easy math.). We ran 250% xp pots the entire time and I think I popped two vitality pots myself. Our 6th member went LD around level 27 or 28, and we finished the rest as a 5 man team. We were within the first dozen to 50. The group that had a 50 before us was a full 6man, and they beat us by minutes or seconds. So we can eliminate an argument around how a 6th player would have decreased the time some noticeable amount.

If you take away the exp pots that extends the time out to ~30hours for a "sweaty" player assuming no changes between Varsoon and Origins. However, we could already tell at Origins beta launch that exp was lower than varsoon; It seems to me it was potentially both kill exp and quest exp. We know mob exp was reduced on May 16th (https://forums.everquest2.com/index.php?threads/beta-updates-5-16-2024.1934/), and at the same time the amount of exp required per level was increased. We were not provided values on the exp change and I haven't done the work yet myself to try and calculate, so for the sake of simplicity for right now I'll assume the exp values are the same and jonly the amount needed to level changed.

This means the 30hours of sweat to 50 without potions is now 30 hours to level ~39. You still need to roughly double the total exp you have at level 39 to get to 50 by my quick math efforts. Assuming you keep your exp rate roughly the same then you're looking at 60 hours to level 50; but we know the exp rates were reduced on May 16th, so we know it'll be greater than 60 hours.

If an unvetted claim on the discord is to be believed the difference between low level exp/per kill (and quest) is roughly 10% of what it was on Varsoon. Are we looking at 600 hours of sweaty play time to get to level 50?
I think a lot folks who want classic want meaningful gear progression within a tier (Hand crafted > Master crafted >Legendary; Like you can see on beta). I don't think a lot people who want a classic experience want a leveling experience that could be hundreds of hours long.

Is this fun? Does it bring in and retain new players?
I want to meet to people in my adventures and make new friends, no offense to the old ones. That'll happen on Origins, at least briefly, as it is now, but how many of those people will I see again in my adventures? I've played the the game a long time. I've made life long friends playing the game, folks who have "hopped across the pond" to stay with me in the states at multiple times in my life. I want to re-experience parts of the social aspects of the MMORPG realm, and at this point in EQ2's life, that means finding and retaining new blood.

Data Values for Varsoon referenced from the Wiki; Values for Origins gathered by surveying the populace at every level on May 19th, 2024.

Level	Varsoon Experience per level	Varsoon Cumulative Experience	Origins (5/19/24)	Origins Total (5/19/24)
2	600	600	600	600
3	800	1,400	1000	1,600
4	1,000	2,400	1000	2,600
5	1,400	3,800	1550	4,150
6	1,800	5,600	2100	6,250
7	2,200	7,800	3200	9,450
8	2,600	10,400	3200	12,650
9	3,000	13,400	3750	16,400
10	3,400	16,800	4300	20,700
11	3,800	20,600	5000	25,700
12	4,200	24,800	5700	31,400
13	4,600	29,400	6400	37,800
14	5,000	34,400	7100	44,900
15	5,500	39,900	7800	52,700
16	6,000	45,900	8500	61,200
17	6,500	52,400	9,200	70,400
18	7,000	59,400	9,900	80,300
19	7,500	66,900	10600	90,900
20	8,000	74,900	11300	102,200
21	8,500	83,400	12900	115,100
22	9,000	92,400	14500	129,600
23	9,500	101,900
24	10,000	111,900
25	10,500	122,400
26	11,000	133,400
27	11,750	145,150
28	12,500	157,650
29	13,250	170,900
30	14,000	184,900
31	14,750	199,650
32	15,500	215,150
33	16,250	231,400
34	17,000	248,400
35	17,750	266,150
36	18,500	284,650
37	19,250	303,900
38	20,000	323,900
39	20,750	344,650
40	21,500	366,150
41	22,250	388,400
42	23,000	411,400
43	24,000	435,400
44	25,000	460,400
45	26,000	486,400
46	27,000	513,400
47	28,000	541,400
48	29,250	570,650
49	30,500	601,150
50	32,000	633,150
51	33,750	666,900
52	35,750	702,650
53	38,000	740,650
54	40,500	780,900
55	42,500	823,400
56	45,500	868,900
57	48,500	917,400
58	51,500	968,900
59	54,500	1,023,400
60	57,500	1,080,900

 

[Ceciliantas]

Is it fun? Does it bring in and retain new players? Please keep these questions in mind.

Varsoon leveling 1-50 on launch day took me ~11 hours and 40mins (We'll say 12 for easy math.). We ran 250% xp pots the entire time and I think I popped two vitality pots myself. Our 6th member went LD around level 27 or 28, and we finished the rest as a 5 man team. We were within the first dozen to 50. The group that had a 50 before us was a full 6man, and they beat us by minutes or seconds. So we can eliminate an argument around how a 6th player would have decreased the time some noticeable amount.

If you take away the exp pots that extends the time out to ~30hours for a "sweaty" player assuming no changes between Varsoon and Origins. However, we could already tell at Origins beta launch that exp was lower than varsoon; It seems to me it was potentially both kill exp and quest exp. We know mob exp was reduced on May 16th (https://forums.everquest2.com/index.php?threads/beta-updates-5-16-2024.1934/), and at the same time the amount of exp required per level was increased. We were not provided values on the exp change and I haven't done the work yet myself to try and calculate, so for the sake of simplicity for right now I'll assume the exp values are the same and jonly the amount needed to level changed.

This means the 30hours of sweat to 50 without potions is now 30 hours to level ~39. You still need to roughly double the total exp you have at level 39 to get to 50 by my quick math efforts. Assuming you keep your exp rate roughly the same then you're looking at 60 hours to level 50; but we know the exp rates were reduced on May 16th, so we know it'll be greater than 60 hours.

If an unvetted claim on the discord is to be believed the difference between low level exp/per kill (and quest) is roughly 10% of what it was on Varsoon. Are we looking at 600 hours of sweaty play time to get to level 50?
I think a lot folks who want classic want meaningful gear progression within a tier (Hand crafted > Master crafted >Legendary; Like you can see on beta). I don't think a lot people who want a classic experience want a leveling experience that could be hundreds of hours long.

Is this fun? Does it bring in and retain new players?
I want to meet to people in my adventures and make new friends, no offense to the old ones. That'll happen on Origins, at least briefly, as it is now, but how many of those people will I see again in my adventures? I've played the the game a long time. I've made life long friends playing the game, folks who have "hopped across the pond" to stay with me in the states at multiple times in my life. I want to re-experience parts of the social aspects of the MMORPG realm, and at this point in EQ2's life, that means finding and retaining new blood.

Data Values for Varsoon referenced from the Wiki; Values for Origins gathered by surveying the populace at every level on May 19th, 2024.

Level	Varsoon Experience per level	Varsoon Cumulative Experience	Origins (5/19/24)	Origins Total (5/19/24)
2	600	600	600	600
3	800	1,400	1000	1,600
4	1,000	2,400	1000	2,600
5	1,400	3,800	1550	4,150
6	1,800	5,600	2100	6,250
7	2,200	7,800	3200	9,450
8	2,600	10,400	3200	12,650
9	3,000	13,400	3750	16,400
10	3,400	16,800	4300	20,700
11	3,800	20,600	5000	25,700
12	4,200	24,800	5700	31,400
13	4,600	29,400	6400	37,800
14	5,000	34,400	7100	44,900
15	5,500	39,900	7800	52,700
16	6,000	45,900	8500	61,200
17	6,500	52,400	9,200	70,400
18	7,000	59,400	9,900	80,300
19	7,500	66,900	10600	90,900
20	8,000	74,900	11300	102,200
21	8,500	83,400	12900	115,100
22	9,000	92,400	14500	129,600
23	9,500	101,900
24	10,000	111,900
25	10,500	122,400
26	11,000	133,400
27	11,750	145,150
28	12,500	157,650
29	13,250	170,900
30	14,000	184,900
31	14,750	199,650
32	15,500	215,150
33	16,250	231,400
34	17,000	248,400
35	17,750	266,150
36	18,500	284,650
37	19,250	303,900
38	20,000	323,900
39	20,750	344,650
40	21,500	366,150
41	22,250	388,400
42	23,000	411,400
43	24,000	435,400
44	25,000	460,400
45	26,000	486,400
46	27,000	513,400
47	28,000	541,400
48	29,250	570,650
49	30,500	601,150
50	32,000	633,150
51	33,750	666,900
52	35,750	702,650
53	38,000	740,650
54	40,500	780,900
55	42,500	823,400
56	45,500	868,900
57	48,500	917,400
58	51,500	968,900
59	54,500	1,023,400
60	57,500	1,080,900

View attachment 989
View attachment 990

Looks fun to me.

 

[Caul Shivers]

View attachment 989
View attachment 990

I think we're looking at about 1.5 - 2 months of gaming EVERY evening for 2.5-3 hours for people to get to 50, at the current values.
A lot of people will consider that a chore and running around CT for the 10th day in a row is going to wear on anyone.

Whatever good will was gained by this server and the old loot and itemization, will be lost by the the current slog in leveling.

Remember, this is just the difference in the XP required to level. It doesn't take into account the nerfed XP gains from mobs, no discovery XP or basically non-existent quest XP.

Doing Jboots, for example, was a fantastic experience in vanilla. You got a LOT of disco XP, a good chunk of quest XP and a great item.
Here, Jboots will just be a 7-zone run for an item.

 

[Ceciliantas]

Zealander is a filthy casual it seems even with these low exp amounts.

 

[karafa13]

There was no point in EQ2's timeline where casual gaming or solo play did not yield a benefit. It's a shame that so many people in here remember incorrectly, or are diluted from the repetitive dungeon grind experience of previous TLE's that they think EQ2 is some race to level the fastest.

Currently at level 19, a non heroic white con same level mob is yielding 0.1% exp with the 15% exp potion active. This would take someone soloing over 1000 mobs to level just grinding, a completely ridiculous number. Quest exp is also terribly low, about 1.25-3% per quest turn in, which includes travel time, fighting different mobs, and are a finite resource.

MMO's are always designed with solo play in mind in play. You were very very capable of soloing the entire way in EQ2 if you wanted to in 2004, and 2006. Was it slower? Yes. Was it difficult? Yes. But it was doable. This forced dungeon grind meta takes away from what the game was, a world of options with a large amount of lower level content. Players are able to solo the entire way and it is preferred by most classes in EQ1 and WoW classic as well.

Dungeon grinding should always be the most efficient and fastest way to level, and I think those numbers are very close to being in a good spot. But even if you have a set group to play with on launch, exp potions, strong or optimal setup you're looking at likely over 70 hours still to get there.

There are many different issues with exp to look at here but the most pressing should be solo and quest exp. It would take you over 100 hours soloing and quest to level from 12-22 (with the EXP potion) in its current state. The server is also missing hundreds of older quests, there are tens upon tens of quests that are broken that we know of this early into beta. Multiple lower level instances don't spawn or don't work. Tons of mobs are missing, or in a conga line with 20 other mobs. The solo or casual experience is completely non-existent outside of the forced dungeon meta.

Origins is what a lot of us have been asking for for a long time, we should be reporting issues and advocating for things that will make the new/returning player experience better and provide longevity on the server. Otherwise this will end up a repeat of previous TLE's where it's the same 300 sickos (myself included) playing it until it dies a few expansions in. Fix the experience rates so the new and returning players don't quit by level 10 because they are either forced to be in groups or forced to slog through solo content that is 70% missing or broken for meaningless exp.

 

[Ramblon]

Which is why Maergoth and others are advocating for increased quest experience compared to how it currently is on Beta right now.

It's funny how it's the same 8 people on these forums claiming to know how everyone prefers to play a game.

 

[Ceciliantas]

Which is why Maergoth and others are advocating for increased quest experience compared to how it currently is on Beta right now.

It's funny how it's the same 8 people on these forums claiming to know how everyone prefers to play a game.

You find those types of people in every game!

 

[Happypanties]

Which is why Maergoth and others are advocating for increased quest experience compared to how it currently is on Beta right now.

It's funny how it's the same 8 people on these forums claiming to know how everyone prefers to play a game.

The majority in this thread want a little bit better experience and quest xp boost. Maergoth and friends or other accounts of his are the only ones who want to keep kill xp or decrease it. Who knows what he wants at this point. Only thing we agree on is quest xp boost.

 

[Zenji]

If an unvetted claim on the discord is to be believed the difference between low level exp/per kill (and quest) is roughly 10% of what it was on Varsoon. Are we looking at 600 hours of sweaty play time to get to level 50?

Nope not even close to accurate. Whomever came up with that 10% either doesn't understand how things work or just made stuff up.

Just from the flat XP giving by yellow mobs at level 20, if the amount of XP given never increased with levels (and it will) it wouldnt take anywhere near 600 hours.

 

[Maergoth]

The majority in this thread want a little bit better experience and quest xp boost. Maergoth and friends or other accounts of his are the only ones who want to keep kill xp or decrease it. Who knows what he wants at this point. Only thing we agree on is quest xp boost.

The same thing I've wanted from the start: 2006 exp values per kill, both solo and grouped. 2-3x Quest EXP because not only isn't it as it was in 2006, but there's no disco exp. 2006 spawn rates.

You could know what I want, if you actually cared to know. It's been consistent from the start.

The caveat is that IF xp splits don't work properly, you can't crank up solo kill EXP without cranking up group EXP, because they are the same thing. With XP split working properly, this is not the case, and killing solo mobs as a group would have diminished returns.

So given the choice between accurate GROUP kill exp and accurate SOLO kill exp, I'd prefer accurate GROUP kill exp. Especially on a server with an increased focus on group gameplay, and the option to crank up quests for solo players. That is an opinion, but what isn't an opinion is that we should not be targeting faster than 2006 exp on a server pitched as "as close to 2006 as possible"

 

[AshtonMarr]

Nope not even close to accurate. Whomever came up with that 10% either doesn't understand how things work or just made stuff up.

Just from the flat XP giving by yellow mobs at level 20, if the amount of XP given never increased with levels (and it will) it wouldnt take anywhere near 600 hours.

While I know the exp per mob should increase some as we level, I have also seen an idea of the difference in required exp, and I'm not certain if the increase in mob exp will increase more than the required. Even something like 120 hours might push me away personally, because that's just the initial grind and not all the other things I feel like I need to do to be "standard raid ready".
Got any numbers you can share at some point to give me some extra data to play with? Because I'll sample & collect some stuff between Varsoon/Live and Beta some this week, but it'll be mostly lower level stuff and then being forced to extrapolate for the sake of my time.

I'm basically using beta to determine if I play this one or find something else to do with my time. If it's not for me that's fine, but I do want to see the game be successful and draw in new people. I'll stand by "Is it fun?" Because I think that's best for everyone over all, but I won't claim to be an expert on fun either.

The same thing I've wanted from the start: 2006 exp values per kill, both solo and grouped. 2-3x Quest EXP because not only isn't it as it was in 2006, but there's no disco exp. 2006 spawn rates.

You could know what I want, if you actually cared to know. It's been consistent from the start.

The caveat is that IF xp splits don't work properly, you can't crank up solo kill EXP without cranking up group EXP, because they are the same thing. With XP split working properly, this is not the case, and killing solo mobs as a group would have diminished returns.

So given the choice between accurate GROUP kill exp and accurate SOLO kill exp, I'd prefer accurate GROUP kill exp. Especially on a server with an increased focus on group gameplay, and the option to crank up quests for solo players. That is an opinion, but what isn't an opinion is that we should not be targeting faster than 2006 exp on a server pitched as "as close to 2006 as possible"

No who you initially responded to, but jumping in a little. I think you're on the nose with the XP split issue, but I'm not certain if it's something we will see get fixed/changed. I also don't think you're necessarily wrong with your preference between group/solo play speeds and which gets fixed/prioritized (first). I do think that there is room for opinions on what can be "as close to 2006 as possible" in regards to targeting key aspects of design while being balanced to be more respectful of a player's time. Which do we think draws and retains a population longer? What's best for bringing in new folks and getting them to try the game, is it "as close to 2006 as possible" or do we convince the developers to use some of that wiggle room so we can see and retain some new faces?