Damage increase

[badname912]

Across the board the Brigs need a damage increase. Last year Brigs could be comparable to swash damage single target (provides swash did not also have TG). Because TG sort of helped bridge the downfalls of the brig DPS.

The abilities across the board for the brig except Forced Arb, Gut Rip, Perforate, viral strike .... The other abilities could easily be increased 75-100%.

The brig needs to be able to outparse the swash on single target but lose to them on AoE for obv reasons as swash is THE AOE class.. but currently losing both is a problem with the class and the TG nerf hurt the brig in more ways than just utility. Cause as I mentioned above. It was the only thing bridging the difference. It required the brig to have more stats just to compete with its counterpart.

 

[Wannalearn1]

wonder why all the downvotes. Do people not see the need for dmg increase in the brig just to make it on par with the swash single target?

 

[Randalph]

Okay. So I down voted this thread and ill explain why and in the process anger a lot of people and potentially some of my own guildies.

I don't think either rogues should get a damage bump and I don't think that because they are not "supposed" to be a T1 DPS or any where near for that matter. They were both born with debuffing in mind and players for a long time classified them as a debuff class.

Brigands would increase the raid outgoing damage - They still do this today to a smaller degree, but its noticeable.
Swash would lower the raids incoming damage - Turned into a T1-T1.5 instead, why? That is a great question. I say laziness and a lack of attention to balancing raid content with the classes toolkit in mind or simply not knowing what all 24 classes can do in the game.

In the past few years these two classes have been threated as if they were supposed to be damage dealers, instead of what their initial purpose was. Swashbuckler got some really odd design choices where they kept giving them offensive group/raid buffs, giving them resets, instead of having content where swashbucklers made a difference with their debuffs and the Brigand got FA which is cool I suppose, but I dont see how it fits in with the rest of its toolkit unless some one thought a debuffer needed a burst AOE/ST damage window(??). Sure A swashbuckler have been able to produce a ton of damage in years past, especially the one in 20 raid encounter where you got a constant flow of adds, but thats so incredible rare these days it might as well not be worth mentioning tbh.

My vision for the game is to return to the tiered class design when it comes to DPS output:

T1: Predators & Sorcerers
T1.5: Summoners & Beast lord
T2: Rogues
T3: Chanters & Bards
T4: Fighters
T5: Healers

That is why every time I see a rogue argue for a damage increase, I shrug my shoulders and think to myself, why is no one playing these two classes advocating for their debuffs, buffs(TG was overpowered and returning it to its old version would still be overpowered) and utility to be better than simply just wanting to be a T1.

I personally want class and archetype uniqueness and value back instead of just focusing on the EncDPS column in Advanced Combat Tracker as being the only true performance metric for EVERYTHING in EQ2, especially on classes that are not pure T1.

 

[Miaga]

So how would you see the damage difference between the tiers? Say a t1 does 100t would t1.5 be 75t t2 50t etc

The trouble then comes if a t1.5 does 75% of the t1 dps what does it bring in buffs to make you want to take it over another t1, summoners yes probably bring enough, bl nope they don't bring anything to the raid in feral stance apart from dps and unless spiritual abilities are boosted massively they dont bring enough in spiritual stance, so why would bl be played when you could take another sin. The same is then for t2 for them to required they would need to bring something more than the difference between t2 and t1 dps otherwise again they would not be needed.

I want classs back to being needed for their unique skills rather than the dps they bring, but for that to happen then there needs to be a lot of work to the buffs and debuffs classes have (maybe debuffs need to be % based to allow them change automatically as the mobs stats increase). You used to be able to see raid dps increase when a brig hit dispatch, now the mob just laughs as it tickles them.

 

[appathy]

With every class having debuffs now mobs cap at 50% on that type of debuff. There would be no difference if dispatch was increased. That is why you dont see a big dps increase in raids when dispatch is used . With that being said you need to make Rogues t1.5 or t2 dps to have raid spots

 

[laodaron123]

Okay. So I down voted this thread and ill explain why and in the process anger a lot of people and potentially some of my own guildies.

I don't think either rogues should get a damage bump and I don't think that because they are not "supposed" to be a T1 DPS or any where near for that matter. They were both born with debuffing in mind and players for a long time classified them as a debuff class.

Brigands would increase the raid outgoing damage - They still do this today to a smaller degree, but its noticeable.
Swash would lower the raids incoming damage - Turned into a T1-T1.5 instead, why? That is a great question. I say laziness and a lack of attention to balancing raid content with the classes toolkit in mind or simply not knowing what all 24 classes can do in the game.

In the past few years these two classes have been threated as if they were supposed to be damage dealers, instead of what their initial purpose was. Swashbuckler got some really odd design choices where they kept giving them offensive group/raid buffs, giving them resets, instead of having content where swashbucklers made a difference with their debuffs and the Brigand got FA which is cool I suppose, but I dont see how it fits in with the rest of its toolkit unless some one thought a debuffer needed a burst AOE/ST damage window(??). Sure A swashbuckler have been able to produce a ton of damage in years past, especially the one in 20 raid encounter where you got a constant flow of adds, but thats so incredible rare these days it might as well not be worth mentioning tbh.

My vision for the game is to return to the tiered class design when it comes to DPS output:

T1: Predators & Sorcerers
T1.5: Summoners & Beast lord
T2: Rogues
T3: Chanters & Bards
T4: Fighters
T5: Healers

That is why every time I see a rogue argue for a damage increase, I shrug my shoulders and think to myself, why is no one playing these two classes advocating for their debuffs, buffs(TG was overpowered and returning it to its old version would still be overpowered) and utility to be better than simply just wanting to be a T1.

I personally want class and archetype uniqueness and value back instead of just focusing on the EncDPS column in Advanced Combat Tracker as being the only true performance metric for EVERYTHING in EQ2, especially on classes that are not pure T1.

My question would be first of all, what utility do Summoners have that Sorcs do not have?

My second question would be that without a clear path to utility for Rogues, why should they ALSO be limited in DPS? Right now, Swash and Brig can debuff ok, but it doesn't make a ton of sense to bring more than 1 of each on a raid, for instance. But you could bring 4 sorcs or 4 sins and still have some levels of success. But bringing a second brig or a second swash doesn't do much in the way of helping the raid.

It makes far more sense in the 20th anniversary of an MMO to bring the DPS of Chanters, Rogues, Summoners, Preds, and Sorcs to being similar. You're still only ever going to want 1 Brig and 1 Swash in the raid. But then classes without any ACTUAL combat based utility like Summoners can also have a spot, and if your guild can't recruit or can't find another DPS, a Rogue or another Summoner can step in to that DPS roll.

EDIT to add, I also no longer play on Live, so my perspective is several years old or based on TLE. I do not advocate balancing towards TLE, so please don't think that's what I'm advocating for. There may be new utility added to summoners in recent expansions that Sorcs do not have.

 

[Randalph]

My question would be first of all, what utility do Summoners have that Sorcs do not have?

Conjurors has the biggest mitigation buff and some of the absolute best stone skins in the entire game. They have CoH. They also naturally benefit from being a pet class. They also provide CBOC shards.

Necromancers can resurrect every 30 seconds. They also naturally benefit from being a pet class. They also provide Fervor Over cap shards.

And that is exactly why I put them as T1.5 and not T2, because while they offer buffs and/or utility (conjuror more so), they don't - and never have, provided as much as rogues should be doing even to this day.

There is also the fact that with regards to raid setup, a Sorcerer is only really useful if he has a troub and gets both Harmo and UT. So that means there will always be a spot for either a summoner, a brig or a swashy in every mage group.

My second question would be that without a clear path to utility for Rogues, why should they ALSO be limited in DPS? Right now, Swash and Brig can debuff ok, but it doesn't make a ton of sense to bring more than 1 of each on a raid, for instance. But you could bring 4 sorcs or 4 sins and still have some levels of success. But bringing a second brig or a second swash doesn't do much in the way of helping the raid.

So that is what rogues should be advocating for... Right? You should advocate for better debuffs and utility, not becoming a T1 DPS. EQ2 players have this obsession with DPS, as if its the magical cure to all class issues. When the actual issues of classes today is that a lot of them don't deliver anything truly specific and unique to a raid composition.

It makes far more sense in the 20th anniversary of an MMO to bring the DPS of Chanters, Rogues, Summoners, Preds, and Sorcs to being similar. You're still only ever going to want 1 Brig and 1 Swash in the raid. But then classes without any ACTUAL combat based utility like Summoners can also have a spot, and if your guild can't recruit or can't find another DPS, a Rogue or another Summoner can step in to that DPS roll.

That makes absolutely no sense, no. The game should head in the complete opposite direction and add more uniqueness and further encourage a certain play style depending on your desired archetype. Not every class should be focused on a DPS meter. If DPS was all that mattered and could fix every single problem with the game, we could simply just remove all archetypes and unlock all AA's and abilities and let us create our own home made classes.

 

[badname912]

Okay. So I down voted this thread and ill explain why and in the process anger a lot of people and potentially some of my own guildies.

I don't think either rogues should get a damage bump and I don't think that because they are not "supposed" to be a T1 DPS or any where near for that matter. They were both born with debuffing in mind and players for a long time classified them as a debuff class.

Brigands would increase the raid outgoing damage - They still do this today to a smaller degree, but its noticeable.
Swash would lower the raids incoming damage - Turned into a T1-T1.5 instead, why? That is a great question. I say laziness and a lack of attention to balancing raid content with the classes toolkit in mind or simply not knowing what all 24 classes can do in the game.

In the past few years these two classes have been threated as if they were supposed to be damage dealers, instead of what their initial purpose was. Swashbuckler got some really odd design choices where they kept giving them offensive group/raid buffs, giving them resets, instead of having content where swashbucklers made a difference with their debuffs and the Brigand got FA which is cool I suppose, but I dont see how it fits in with the rest of its toolkit unless some one thought a debuffer needed a burst AOE/ST damage window(??). Sure A swashbuckler have been able to produce a ton of damage in years past, especially the one in 20 raid encounter where you got a constant flow of adds, but thats so incredible rare these days it might as well not be worth mentioning tbh.

My vision for the game is to return to the tiered class design when it comes to DPS output:

T1: Predators & Sorcerers
T1.5: Summoners & Beast lord
T2: Rogues
T3: Chanters & Bards
T4: Fighters
T5: Healers

That is why every time I see a rogue argue for a damage increase, I shrug my shoulders and think to myself, why is no one playing these two classes advocating for their debuffs, buffs(TG was overpowered and returning it to its old version would still be overpowered) and utility to be better than simply just wanting to be a T1.

I personally want class and archetype uniqueness and value back instead of just focusing on the EncDPS column in Advanced Combat Tracker as being the only true performance metric for EVERYTHING in EQ2, especially on classes that are not pure T1.

While I completely agree. I'm not even looking at nerfing the swash. But as it's counterpart they should be rather close in damage. If swash was to stay the exact same then the brig would 100% need an increase in it's single target damage just to compete with its good aligned sibling. Not even talking about the debuff side of things.

Right now the swash brings very similar debuffs to the brig were from a debuff only side they are comparable. .. but when you factor in buffs the swash wins and damage the swash wins again.
2/3 of the purpose of the rogue the swash wins so my thought here was hey let's make the brig comparable to swash so they are more desired.

if the brig did same damage as the swash did in today's world would I consider it. Absolutely. But that's not the case anymore because the brig was bridging it's damage deficiency by using TG to have more stats than the swash.

 

[badname912]

My question would be first of all, what utility do Summoners have that Sorcs do not have?

My second question would be that without a clear path to utility for Rogues, why should they ALSO be limited in DPS? Right now, Swash and Brig can debuff ok, but it doesn't make a ton of sense to bring more than 1 of each on a raid, for instance. But you could bring 4 sorcs or 4 sins and still have some levels of success. But bringing a second brig or a second swash doesn't do much in the way of helping the raid.

It makes far more sense in the 20th anniversary of an MMO to bring the DPS of Chanters, Rogues, Summoners, Preds, and Sorcs to being similar. You're still only ever going to want 1 Brig and 1 Swash in the raid. But then classes without any ACTUAL combat based utility like Summoners can also have a spot, and if your guild can't recruit or can't find another DPS, a Rogue or another Summoner can step in to that DPS roll.

EDIT to add, I also no longer play on Live, so my perspective is several years old or based on TLE. I do not advocate balancing towards TLE, so please don't think that's what I'm advocating for. There may be new utility added to summoners in recent expansions that Sorcs do not have.

I think the argument you can bring for why 4 summoners over 4 rogues. Is how group make ups work. A summoner as a 2nd DPS in a mage group is less hindered than a rogue as a 2nd DPS in scout group. Mage groups just seem to be more efficient with double DPS than scout groups. Wether that's because scout groups are typically where tanks are idk.. but for whatever reason that's the case. I'd rather be a 2nd DPS in a mage group than one in a scout group.

 

[badname912]

Conjurors has the biggest mitigation buff and some of the absolute best stone skins in the entire game. They have CoH. They have one of the easiest rotations in the game. They also provide CBOC shards.

Necromancers can resurrect every 30 seconds. They have one of the easiest rotations in the game. They also provide Fervor Over cap shards.

And that is exactly why I put them as T1.5 and not T2, because while they offer buffs and/or utility, they don't - and never have, provided as much as rogues should be doing even to this day.


So that is what rogues should be advocating for... Right? You should advocate for better debuffs and utility, not becoming a T1 DPS. EQ2 players have this obsession with DPS, as if its the magical cure to all class issues. When the actual issues of classes today is that a lot of them don't deliver anything truly specific and unique to a raid composition.


That makes absolutely no sense, no. The game should head in the complete opposite direction and add more uniqueness and further encourage a certain play style, depending on your desired archetype. Not every class should be focused on a DPS meter. If DPS was all that mattered and could fix every single problem with the game, we could simply just remove all archetypes and unlock all AA's and abilities and let us create our own home made classes.

So in the past we have advocated for better debuffs. With the current state of combat mit abilities doing 800 cmit reduction are worthless and those recommendations were ignored during class adjustments.. had they adjusted debuffs to be meaningful at same time as nerfing TG I don't think we'd have this conversation..

But currently we aren't even balanced to our opposite class the swash.. same can be made for assassin vs ranger. Wizzy vs warlock.

 

[Perciful]

Okay. So I down voted this thread and ill explain why and in the process anger a lot of people and potentially some of my own guildies.

I don't think either rogues should get a damage bump and I don't think that because they are not "supposed" to be a T1 DPS or any where near for that matter. They were both born with debuffing in mind and players for a long time classified them as a debuff class.

Brigands would increase the raid outgoing damage - They still do this today to a smaller degree, but its noticeable.
Swash would lower the raids incoming damage - Turned into a T1-T1.5 instead, why? That is a great question. I say laziness and a lack of attention to balancing raid content with the classes toolkit in mind or simply not knowing what all 24 classes can do in the game.

In the past few years these two classes have been threated as if they were supposed to be damage dealers, instead of what their initial purpose was. Swashbuckler got some really odd design choices where they kept giving them offensive group/raid buffs, giving them resets, instead of having content where swashbucklers made a difference with their debuffs and the Brigand got FA which is cool I suppose, but I dont see how it fits in with the rest of its toolkit unless some one thought a debuffer needed a burst AOE/ST damage window(??). Sure A swashbuckler have been able to produce a ton of damage in years past, especially the one in 20 raid encounter where you got a constant flow of adds, but thats so incredible rare these days it might as well not be worth mentioning tbh.

My vision for the game is to return to the tiered class design when it comes to DPS output:

T1: Predators & Sorcerers
T1.5: Summoners & Beast lord
T2: Rogues
T3: Chanters & Bards
T4: Fighters
T5: Healers

That is why every time I see a rogue argue for a damage increase, I shrug my shoulders and think to myself, why is no one playing these two classes advocating for their debuffs, buffs(TG was overpowered and returning it to its old version would still be overpowered) and utility to be better than simply just wanting to be a T1.

I personally want class and archetype uniqueness and value back instead of just focusing on the EncDPS column in Advanced Combat Tracker as being the only true performance metric for EVERYTHING in EQ2, especially on classes that are not pure T1.

Right now, Brigand DPS is on par with fighters, and in some cases with healers. So using your chart, Brigands have been relegated to T4 / T5. They need to be fixed.

 

[badname912]

Right now, Brigand DPS is on par with fighters, and in some cases with healers. So using your chart, Brigands have been relegated to T4 / T5. They need to be fixed. The very small community of Brigands have provided all of the data, suggestions, recommendations etc etc many many times. Now we are doing the same in a new improved forum. Wonder if the listening will improve.

We did it before the expac released.. and again after the TG nerf.. and we even called out the TG nerf was a double whammy to brig itself... And we got nothing.

I miss my brig more than anything right now in this game

 

[Perciful]

Right after the Thieves Guild (TG) Nerf, there was a very noticeable decrease to Brigand’s overall DPS from what it was pre-BOZ. There is some thought out in the community that combat arts were adjusted during beta testing the brig with the thieves guild. So, when the TG nerf hit, we essentially received a double whammy nerf. Combat Arts were not reverted to pre-BOZ stats. They probably don’t have the data to revert them. The Brig nerf is kind of similar to what is happening with Beastlord right now… primal damage multipliers did not receive the essential bump to balance the class with new expac. Might be simple mistakes, but they have got to be recognized and attended to when raised. At this point I would be happy with the pre BOZ expac stats. It is currently embarrassing to play a Brig. So, my recommendation is to increase Brigand CA output by a good percentage to bring it back to T2 / T1.5 level.

 

[Ionized]

Conjurors has the biggest mitigation buff and some of the absolute best stone skins in the entire game. They have CoH. They also naturally benefit from being a pet class. They also provide CBOC shards.

Necromancers can resurrect every 30 seconds. They also naturally benefit from being a pet class. They also provide Fervor Over cap shards.

And that is exactly why I put them as T1.5 and not T2, because while they offer buffs and/or utility (conjuror more so), they don't - and never have, provided as much as rogues should be doing even to this day.

There is also the fact that with regards to raid setup, a Sorcerer is only really useful if he has a troub and gets both Harmo and UT. So that means there will always be a spot for either a summoner, a brig or a swashy in every mage group.


So that is what rogues should be advocating for... Right? You should advocate for better debuffs and utility, not becoming a T1 DPS. EQ2 players have this obsession with DPS, as if its the magical cure to all class issues. When the actual issues of classes today is that a lot of them don't deliver anything truly specific and unique to a raid composition.


That makes absolutely no sense, no. The game should head in the complete opposite direction and add more uniqueness and further encourage a certain play style depending on your desired archetype. Not every class should be focused on a DPS meter. If DPS was all that mattered and could fix every single problem with the game, we could simply just remove all archetypes and unlock all AA's and abilities and let us create our own home made classes.

Okay. So I down voted this thread and ill explain why and in the process anger a lot of people and potentially some of my own guildies.

I don't think either rogues should get a damage bump and I don't think that because they are not "supposed" to be a T1 DPS or any where near for that matter. They were both born with debuffing in mind and players for a long time classified them as a debuff class.

Brigands would increase the raid outgoing damage - They still do this today to a smaller degree, but its noticeable.
Swash would lower the raids incoming damage - Turned into a T1-T1.5 instead, why? That is a great question. I say laziness and a lack of attention to balancing raid content with the classes toolkit in mind or simply not knowing what all 24 classes can do in the game.

In the past few years these two classes have been threated as if they were supposed to be damage dealers, instead of what their initial purpose was. Swashbuckler got some really odd design choices where they kept giving them offensive group/raid buffs, giving them resets, instead of having content where swashbucklers made a difference with their debuffs and the Brigand got FA which is cool I suppose, but I dont see how it fits in with the rest of its toolkit unless some one thought a debuffer needed a burst AOE/ST damage window(??). Sure A swashbuckler have been able to produce a ton of damage in years past, especially the one in 20 raid encounter where you got a constant flow of adds, but thats so incredible rare these days it might as well not be worth mentioning tbh.

My vision for the game is to return to the tiered class design when it comes to DPS output:

T1: Predators & Sorcerers
T1.5: Summoners & Beast lord
T2: Rogues
T3: Chanters & Bards
T4: Fighters
T5: Healers

That is why every time I see a rogue argue for a damage increase, I shrug my shoulders and think to myself, why is no one playing these two classes advocating for their debuffs, buffs(TG was overpowered and returning it to its old version would still be overpowered) and utility to be better than simply just wanting to be a T1.

I personally want class and archetype uniqueness and value back instead of just focusing on the EncDPS column in Advanced Combat Tracker as being the only true performance metric for EVERYTHING in EQ2, especially on classes that are not pure T1.

I think what your saying is right but not practical. Because this is the truth when it comes down to it, either we raise our personal damage, or we raise the damage of t1's . That's it. And for the rogue class to have a chance on harder content like h3 we basically either have to debuff/ or buff the T1 damage types in group at a level that we can hold a place over simply filling it with another t1. My brigand and my warlock had to tag along to get contested h3 mobs all killed in RoR xpac because they were simply not strong enough for early attempts. And i would also like to point out that rogues were masters of melee dps. They have many xpac's where they were at the least t1.5. Why does everyone forget how much damage they were orginally with melee working correctly. Please check where the Rogue's were before the melee shift.

 

[Silverman1]

Looks like someone/people are making individualized posts for CA increases. Caith mentioned he wont do any sweeping generic request for increases and needs to be individualized for each ability.