Brig debuff class again

[Kalemaroni]

Sorry for coming late to the conversation with this, but I see the big problem being that Brigand is no longer what it was designed to do, which is to debuff the mob to make it die quicker. Turning brig into a buffer is a problem because it brings down the value of the traditional buffing classes like bards who are already suffering from low dps issues and only have buffs going for them.

Why are we trying to make brigs buffers when we should be trying to make debuffing a thing again instead?

I would like to see a significant enough relevant debuff that makes it very noticeable when a brigand isn't in the group/raid. We all know when we're missing a bard in the group or a swash in the raid, our dps plummets, and it used to be the case that if we didn't have a brig in the raid we would all notice. How can we get back to this place?

I'm leaning towards removing/reducing damage increasing and combat mitigation debuffs from other classes and making brig the one that does it. I haven't done much number crunching this expansion, I've been away from the game for a few years so would appreciate some knowledge sharing and advice and on how to go about making a solid proposal with real numbers.

I want to hear raid leaders and assassins alike screaming for a brig in the raid. And pugs not sighing when all they get for a DPS request in general chat is a brig...

 

[appathy]

like to see the numbers even if its doubled with all classes getting debuffs and mobs cap at 50% of that debuff not sure the dps numbers will go up much just like everyone is using elemental debuff runes so the raid boss is capped on that debuff

 

[Kalemaroni]

Couple of things on that: First of all, there is an "All damage" cap which is 50% and that is a separate cap from individual magical/physical type damage debuffs like the elemental one that you described.

Secondly, people using damage type modifiers will not have certain melee spells, like Band of Thugs for example, converted to magical damage like elemental so there is still a separate 50% cap of physical damage that is relevant although not as high a percentage (around 25%) as there used to be due to no autoattacks any more.

Also, there is combat mitigation which is its own beast that I do not fully understand as I came back to the game to be greeted with it and have only just re-rolled a brigand and begun to look into these things again.

The idea that I'm putting forward is to revamp debuffing and the ability for other classes to reach those debuff caps and instead make brigand have back its mantle as main debuffer, giving that value whereby raids NEED 1 brigand in the raid. So for example, make it so that a full raid of mixed classes and magical type adornment procs etc would only ever be able to reach the 25% cap and brigand would be responsible to get the further 25% to hit the 50% debuff cap.

The design would be in such a way that for long fights the cap would be achievable after laying down complete set of debuffs and the value of the brigand would be obvious, and on short fights and groups they would not necessarily be able to max debuff mobs but still enough that there would be a noticeable gain in groupwide dps that mirrors the benefit of, say, swash fervor debuff.

DPS wise the design would be such that the brigand has to balance laying down low dps debuffs vs high dps spells. A good brigand will be known by good players as one who does medium dps but improves the group/raid's dps, in the same way as a good dirge is one who buffs the high dps in their group not themselves.

I like the term "unsung hero" for how I have always though of Brigands and I also have always thought of brigand as being played by, and wanted in group/raid, by players with a more advanced understanding of the mechanics of the game.

There used to be a valuable order in which brigands would open with their debuffs, and it was all about making dispatch land - you'd open with parry debuff because that was the first defensive check on the mob and parry debuff had a good hit rate, then you had better chance for Mug to land reducing the defense of the mob, which then made it far more likely for Dispatch to land, and it was important for brigands to be fast to get that all off the bat straight away for everyone else's stuff to land on that initial debuffing and big burn with all the temps running. That level of skill required would be nice to bring back for the class.

 

[Lordowitch]

If The Brig is not missed in Raid then he also not Performing well, The Debuff from Brigand is still visible and the Dmg of Brigand is still High. Its all just up on the Player in the End how he Cicle things, If the Brigand gets dumped to we need him just for Debuffs then we could delet the class pretty much.

We are Still Dpser with the Benefit of Debuffs so there is a Point to Have us, thre was a nice Potency buff we had but because Guild made everyone change to Brigand for that it got nerfed alot it could have been solved differently.

 

[Kalemaroni]

If The Brig is not missed in Raid then he also not Performing well, The Debuff from Brigand is still visible and the Dmg of Brigand is still High. Its all just up on the Player in the End how he Cicle things, If the Brigand gets dumped to we need him just for Debuffs then we could delet the class pretty much.

We are Still Dpser with the Benefit of Debuffs so there is a Point to Have us, thre was a nice Potency buff we had but because Guild made everyone change to Brigand for that it got nerfed alot it could have been solved differently.

 

[badname912]

If The Brig is not missed in Raid then he also not Performing well, The Debuff from Brigand is still visible and the Dmg of Brigand is still High. Its all just up on the Player in the End how he Cicle things, If the Brigand gets dumped to we need him just for Debuffs then we could delet the class pretty much.

We are Still Dpser with the Benefit of Debuffs so there is a Point to Have us, thre was a nice Potency buff we had but because Guild made everyone change to Brigand for that it got nerfed alot it could have been solved differently.

If the damage of your brig seems high it might be a case of the real DPS or even the swash is bad.. currently no skillful brig be keeping up with equally skillful swash or other DPS classes.

The TG buff was OP but the nerf affected them sideways. ... The only reason the Brigs were semi competitive last year prenerf was because TG forced them to have significantly more stats then 3/4ths of the raid force . Artificially boosting Brigs.

We don't want TG to be OP we simply want Brigs to be balanced. But they keep getting hit with massive swings back and forth.

 

[Lordowitch]

If the damage of your brig seems high it might be a case of the real DPS or even the swash is bad.. currently no skillful brig be keeping up with equally skillful swash or other DPS classes.

The TG buff was OP but the nerf affected them sideways. ... The only reason the Brigs were semi competitive last year prenerf was because TG forced them to have significantly more stats then 3/4ths of the raid force . Artificially boosting Brigs.

We don't want TG to be OP we simply want Brigs to be balanced. But they keep getting hit with massive swings back and forth.

Well that TG was broken was be sure at Day one.
If there is no Aoe Fight a Brig for sure can be competive against a equal gear swash which has lower play skill, the brig just ignore the debuff part for that.
But all depends on the time of the Bossfight, an 10 min fight it gets really tough to keep it up.
I do not have Raid parses on Brig now also no Raid Gear but in H3 its daoble to parse good.

What Parses does your Brigands get out on raids?

 

[badname912]

Well that TG was broken was be sure at Day one.
If there is no Aoe Fight a Brig for sure can be competive against a equal gear swash which has lower play skill, the brig just ignore the debuff part for that.
But all depends on the time of the Bossfight, an 10 min fight it gets really tough to keep it up.
I do not have Raid parses on Brig now also no Raid Gear but in H3 its daoble to parse good.

What Parses does your Brigands get out on raids?

See that's an issue.. like you said.. on a NON AOE fight a brig is competitive to a LOWER PLAY SKILL SWASH.
Doesn't matter what my brig or our brig parses, the fact that a brig is only keeping up with a lesser swash on a single target non AOE fight is literally the problem.. remove the AOE vs single target.. the issue still lies with a lesser skilled swash is keeping up with a better skilled brigand ..

 

[Lordowitch]

I had actually the chance to raidwith Brigand, and its Really Possible to outparse the swashy on single fights. its not that bad.
Most parts are just stats and grp setting, wasnt in a big buffed grp but could still go high on parse :
( Only 3 Grp Raid on T1 Boss)

Longer Fights It falls a bit down tue script and etc.
But thats a Parse where Birgands look pretty ok to be, since we arent forseign as T1

1. (02:11) Chromon, Titan of Colors: 246.13T -Shadebringer-132.58T
2. 39.7T Conj
3. |39.68T Ranger
4. 33.71T Ranger
5. 29.48T Brig
6. 27.98T BL
7. 23.86T Necro
8. 20.89T Wiz
9. 17.94T Swash